Bull Red Gender

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https://www.charlestonfishing.com/forums/Topic/Posts/185316?pagenum=1
05/16/21 21:23

Topic


StumpNocker
Bull Red Gender
04/27/21 11:04


Watching and listening to the show Unfathomed over the weekend and Captain George Gozdz was in Charleston doing an episode called Chucktown Reds. He was fishing with local Captain JR Waits. Capt Waits stated that with the big bull reds you couldn't tell if they were male or female. Aren't the ones that drum males? Do they stop drumming when they get a certain size? Just wondering if that's really the case on big spottail? Anyone else catch the episode?

Paging Barbawang...

I tried to post this yesterday but damm forum wont let me post but once a day or something.


Fishing Nerd

"No bar, no pinball machines, no bowling alleys, just pool... nothing else."

...well, some fishing too!

 

Replies ...


barbawang
04/27/21 16:53


Males drum, but not necessarily all the time. Same for spotted seatrout and black drum. They begin drumming before maturity, and never lose the ability. Thus, one can only confirm male-ness, but absence of drumming shouldn’t necessarily be construed as female-ness.
barbawang
04/27/21 16:57


BTW posing this from just offshore of Bulls Bay, and its a very nice day
StumpNocker
04/27/21 17:42


BTW posing this from just offshore of Bulls Bay, and its a very nice day Originally posted by barbawang


Must be tough being out there... lucky dog!


So as far as the spottial go, the only way to know for sure is by hearing the drumming? There are no visible factors in determining the gender? And that goes for any size fish? Just trying to have a clear understanding here. Thanks for the reply!

Also, the first time I heard a trout drum, I instantly knew it was a male. So I guess I learned some6at some point haha.





Fishing Nerd

"No bar, no pinball machines, no bowling alleys, just pool... nothing else."

...well, some fishing too!
barbawang
04/28/21 13:47


you're correct. "visible factors determining the gender" are called sexual dimorphisms in my trade, and a blue crab is the perfect example. different shape (salmon kype), color (lots of reef fish), size (many cichlids), patterning (striped killifish and mummichogs) are examples of sexual dimorphisms in fish.

the exception for current discussion is one of relativity wherein young seatrout, red drum, and some others can be more or less sorted into "size bins" based on sex. This is really only true for large datasets because there's plenty of overlap. for example, if you measured and aged 100 male trout that were 2yrs old (their spawning season is basically all summer, so we assign them a "birthdate" of July 1 but recognize there's huge plasticity), they should be closer on average to 14" than the 100 females that would center closer to 15.5-16". just an example, my numbers might be a little off. it blurs after a year or two as growth varies between individuals, especially for the longer lived species such as red drum.

the reason i brought that part up is applicability to the fishery: in the fall of a seatrout's second year of life, i am more likely to keep a 15-16" grunting fish that has passed on his genes for at least one season (sometimes 2 if they were born early) as opposed to a non-grunting 17-18" fish that is more likely to be a female. Stump, I'm glad you asked and I think you already knew this part... but I also think it can help others frame an idea of what their own personal accountability can be if they are interested. Other hugely relevant example is the female-ness of almost 100% of legal-size southern flounder ;)

ramble over for now.
StumpNocker
04/28/21 15:08


That's the type of answer I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time to explain, it is certainly appreciated! thumbsUp



Fishing Nerd

"No bar, no pinball machines, no bowling alleys, just pool... nothing else."

...well, some fishing too!
Off the chain
04/28/21 15:37


(sexual dimorphisms)
Thank goodness for Google..

As far as the drumming is that 100%???
I had a chicken once that started crowing about 2 weeks after my rooster got killed by a fox.


I am fragile.
Not like a flower.
But like a bomb.

22 life's a day
barbawang
04/28/21 15:57


it's 100% for fish as far as we know, males make those sounds with muscles along their swimbladders that the females don't have.

my alpha chicken wakes me up every morning, and she's never been around a rooster. i wouldn't call it crowing, but it's darn annoying enough. Don't think she even lays any eggs, just chases the others around and b****es at 'em.
Edisto Fisher
04/28/21 19:33


Way back before the dark times I spent a little time at the Waddell Center and I seem to recall an ichthyologist telling me that a stressed female red drum can make the drumming sound.

I am certain he said black drum females have the ability to make the drum sound.

Mr barbawang I know that sounds like a know it all thing to say, but inference is difficult with the written word, so just know that I am saying that, but in a question tone of voice. I am no expert and recognize that you are.

Was the old guy with horn-rimmed glasses and gin on his breath wrong?





I don't think Striped Bass Drum, but they make a popping sound when top feeding,,,,,or so I'm told

Optiker
04/28/21 23:03


Great discussion. Thanks Barbawang, as always.

As you mentioned, size can also be an indicator - but not 100%. For example, if you catch a trout over 22" you can be pretty sure it's female. Any male trout over 20" is a "gator" in terms of age - in our waters, about 7 years old.

I'm not edumacated on redfish growth rates, so will not make anything up.

I bet most people don't know that virtually 100% of "keeper" size flounder are female.

It's important to let the big ones go, all species. #releaseover20


________________________
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mdaddy
04/28/21 23:21


That's my Barbawang.

My chickens are sans rooster as well. The biggest hen took over all his duties...I take it as the natural order of things...prevents chaos.

The point about big Flounder can't be over emphasized...they stick out like a sore thumb under the light.

I can't think of a game fish species where the males are larger than females except dolphin...can you?






The ENTER-NET Fisherman
Off the chain
04/28/21 23:41


Twice in one day and twice on the same thread.. y'all made me use the Google dictionary.
) ichthyologist (
Hell I thought EF was making words up. But obviously not..


I am fragile.
Not like a flower.
But like a bomb.

22 life's a day
Fred67
04/29/21 10:19


Great post. Learn stuff all the time. I never knew the larger flounder were all females until Optiker posted it. I've talked to a bunch of people about it and only one person said he knew this (which I don't think he did). Maybe this knowledge will get passed around and let a few big females return to lay some eggs.

Barbawang, I knew the Drummers are male and under the impression that any red over 30" was a female. Is this so? That's always been my hang up on people purposely targeting the "Bull's" that you can't keep anyway.

Growing up I've heard a few Hen's crow as well. They mostly sound like a young roster just starting out and never change tone.
barbawang
04/29/21 16:18


EF, that's a new one on me, but I always defer to the guy who smells like gin when it comes to matters of marine biology. There is another sound that red drum can make with their "crushers" which are the pharyngeal teeth at the back of the throat, sounds like grinding gravel when they mash them together as a stress response (or when destroying a huge rusty jimmy, i'd imagine). but that's probably not the sound in question.

As far as black drum, I'm pretty sure you're right that both sexes can drum. So can croaker, which is why they do it every time you catch one. Spot and whiting are silent Sciaenids by contrast.

The muscles that extend along the swimbladders of males simply aren't present in females as far as i'm aware. if you cut open a trout that you noticed was drumming, look for the deep red/almost purple muscle strip along the inside of the abdominal cavity. It's visible when filleting through the top of the rib cage as well. Those muscles hypertrophy due to use during spawning season and atrophy before it's time for Spring training the next year.


Fred, I can't find a age/length key that breaks males and females apart right now, but the "over 30" is a female red drum" thing is definitely not true. many individuals don't even mature till after they're 30" long, and for my own purposes I really don't think of a "bull" as anything under 36... but that's my own designation because I know they're pretty much all adults at that point, and due to what the average drag stack on a 2500 can do (and how fair the fight can quickly become around structure). I'll direct you to Pg15, Fig12 in the below publication and let you take in the large amount of information there. it's the reason the slot is set the way it is, keep only subadults that are roughly 1.5-2.5yrs old before they come close to maturity and are therefore valuable to protect as long-lived spawning stock.

https://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/mrri/insh_fish/reddrum.pdf

in fact, i have this link bookmarked because it can answer a lot of these type of questions for me, and there are some good stories and fishing tips in them too:

https://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/mrri/insh_fish/publications.html


10lb test and a 1/0 circle hook, live bait fishing for trout around rocks... fair fight.
barbawang
04/29/21 16:23


before you talk down the size of my fish (oh, i miss the old Skinnee, Phin, and S4G days), remember that i have enormous hands.

OTC gonna burn up some google on that last post.
StumpNocker
04/29/21 21:14


How bout that hair too! Nice!

Hey man, thanks for the major contributions to this thread. I'm learning a lot!


Fishing Nerd

"No bar, no pinball machines, no bowling alleys, just pool... nothing else."

...well, some fishing too!
Off the chain
04/30/21 1:38


I'm batting a thousand today..
Good stuff...

Oh yeah it's Willy's birthday today he's 88...¡!!!


I am fragile.
Not like a flower.
But like a bomb.

22 life's a day
Fred67
04/30/21 10:11


Nice! You and Optiker have schooled me. Still lot's to learn in life. I always thought the big Spot Tail were all females and never knew all large Flounder are females. I'm with ya on a "bull" + 36" . And for Optiker, yes I have caught and released some fish in my later years. Had a nice legal live well of Spot tail a few months ago all were still good and lively.. Let em go. Guess now when I see a Big Red floating from neglect from a poor fisherman i can't automatically assume its a lady fish.

How is SkinnyJ doing? He always kept a post lively. Since he got his deep water dock and Bolbie taught him lawn care, you just don't hear from him any more. smile
Fred67
04/30/21 10:14


what year was the pic from? Mid 70"s? or you sporting that fabulous frock today? Looks like my brothers hair do's were then.

I've got my mom looking for them , back in the late 60's Dad was stationed at Hunter Arm/Air station in Savannah. He's caught some epic spot tail, trout and sheep head from the groins around Tybee.
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